What do we think about AI Generated Music?
I’ve just done a spoof song about AI generated music. But behind it lies some important concerns.
Following one or two questions that were asked following my song, I thought I’d ask what people think about AI in music. Some of this has already been covered I know, but it’s a hot topic about which I have some strong feelings. I stress that what I think is not meant to deter anyone from posting. RDM has clearly listed the rules about AI generated music on the forum, and we should abide by those rules.
AI generated music has only started to appear here recently and I have to say I was completely caught out. I knew it was on the horizon but I had no idea how far it had advanced. My initial reaction was one of abject horror! I’m a musician and to say that this process goes against the grain would be an understatement!
After some discussion and reflection, I slowly came around to the idea that I have little to worry about. At my time of life I’m not trying to build a career in music and I can just carry on with what I do regardless. I decided I should continue to take each contribution to the forum as I see and hear it, regardless of how it's created. And for the most part I still do that though, if I'm honest, I do sometimes just check out the lyrics and ignore the AI.
But I still think about the wider implications. Could the charts become filled with AI music? For all I know they maybe already! But what about professional songwriters? The record and media companies won’t give a **** about them if they can get the music via AI. Better for them still if they can actually own the process, which I believe may already be happening.
There’s an irony here. Some people think that I’m cheating using vst instruments along with my voice and guitars to create the sound of a full band. Guilty as charged! I’m old enough to remember the furore when synth technology first took off. I was happy to embrace that. I guess we were doing ‘real' musicians out of work too!!
I’m interested to see what others here think. Please, let’s keep it civilised!
Comments
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I too am old enough to remember the analog equipment my cousin had though I never used it. I saw his frustrations.
To me AI removes our ability to create by becoming a crutch which will eventually erase the artists creativity. A tool unused rusts to dust. We mustn't allow our creativity to be stifled by AI.
As a writer I have played with the AI from deep, gpt and open to formulate a poem from scratch with the only input as , Write me a poem or write me a sonnet.
The output was at first garbage but with carefully crafted prompting it composed a relatively decent poem.
Upon further prompts it crafted a very well structured piece that confirmed to true poetic standards.
Imo, using AI for writing is dangerous and not useful. It can benefit writers by assisting with punctuation or commenting on narrative arcs etc but should not be use to create.
Now for music, I cannot speak authoritatively as I know nothing about it's creation but I would surmise it to be the same for writing. Removal of the creative process detracts from the artists limitations and allows them not to push those limits to learn more about their craft.
On the other hand, the use of AI in generating music to accompany lyrics because the writer has no lyrical ability may be acceptable to portray their ideas effectively using tools they are unable to wield.
Personally I haven't tried using the mentioned apps Sonos and the other one. I haven't because I would prefer someone else take my words and apply their musical talents and skills. If my words are out to AI music and it works, so be it. I only create the words so the music part is out of my hands completely.
My 2¢0 -
We seem to be thinking along the same lines.
I forgot to mention that I have absolutely nothing against lyricists - indeed I've collaborated with one or two on this forum and elsewhere and I like to think it's been rewarding for all concerned. I can see that, if a lyricist has no musical ability, AI can help them create a finished product - and I can understand why they do it. But...well, I could go round in circles!
I did have a look at Udio a while back. Not that I intended to use it, rather out of curiosity. I was amazed at how good some of the examples on their site sounded. Which didn't make me feel any better about it!!
If I was ever tempted to give AI a go I think I'd create something mischievous! The most awful Christmas song ever or something of that sort!!
😀
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Hey Chris thanks for the expanation. Since I'm relatively new at the song writing game I'm caught betwixt and between trying to figure out how incorporate AI into my songs...or not. For the moment I'm gonna stay primitive and pure...just me and a guitar. Hope ya'll don't find it boring.
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@StoneFlowers Not boring at all to my ears! I'm liking what I hear.
Please don't let my ideas deter you from experimenting with AI. It's just one guy's thoughts and opinion.
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I'm sure we would all agree that knives, shovels, crowbars and knitting needles are all very useful tools to help us in our everyday lives. Put them in the wrong hands and they can be deadly. The same can be said for Ai in music.
Ai is a great tool for music lovers in lots of applications, but less so if used for the wrong purposes, i.e. to replace musicians. It is unreasonable to be critical of Ai per se as it is to be critical of a knitting needle. It is how it's used and why it's used that should form the basis of any criticism.
I use Ai purely to hear what my words sound like with music. Am I giving any musicians work if I didn't use Ai and equally could not afford to employ them.
Before the advent of Ai, a lot of members of this forum submitted lyrics only, and like me, do not play any musical instruments or sing. Now with Ai, I still only submit lyrics to this forum, the Ai component is hosted on another site.
I make clear in the link to the Ai song that it is my lyrics accompanied by Ai vocals and music, I am not trying to dupe anyone. Lyrics and Ai music/vocals are there to assist those people who find it easier to assess the quality of the lyrics when set to music and sung, no more than that.
To musicians who feel challenged, my advice is to pick your targets carefully. The lyricist who just wants to bring his words alive, is not your enemy!
Sid
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Well said mate! think your ethics are 100%..but then I did from the off. You've always been totally honest about what you're doing.
I don't feel challenged, threatened or anything like that. I did at first but I got over that.
I fully understand what you say about lyricists wanting to bring their words alive, but is AI really the way to go? The problem for me is that, when I read your lyrics, I honestly believe they deserve so much more. Your lyrics are works of art. For me, AI generated music isn't art at all. How can it be? There's no human endeavour - unless you count a few prompts.
But, like most songwriters in places like this, I want to concentrate on what I'm doing, so collaborations are as and when I have the time. That doesn't help you if you want to get something out there. So, yeah I understand.
There's no right and wrong here. It doesn't matter where any of us stand on a forum like this, it's going to happen anyway.
Interesting responses so far. Any other takers?
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@sidshovel I can see your viewpoint clearly and agree with most of it and can understand using it to hear what the lyrics sound like put to music. I believe this is a good way to 'scratch' it out.
With not being able to afford to pay a musician to create a track for the lyrics, I also see it being useful. Possibly my perception needs adjustments as my information was singular from personal experience and my own biases from my interactions with AI testing it's accuracy for non-biased communication and information presentation. (It failed miserably)
It is highly probable that AI is more useful than I believed provided it is utilized for the correct purposes and not permitted to 'think/create' for me except where I am completely lacking like musical knowledge and ability.
Thanks for shift in perception.
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Thanks Chris,
I agree, Ai music is not art, far from it!
Right now, for the reasons outlined, this is all I have.
Bit like banging on two biscuit tins for the beat. Much prefer the percussion section of the London Philharmonic but on the off chance they wont do it for free!
I'm sure everyone who posts on this forum would love to hear their words/songs sung by a famous artist with full musical accompaniment. Ai is my biscuit tin on the road to the LPO.
Sid
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Great call on starting this thread Chris.
Good cross section of opinions on a topical issue.
More power to your elbow.
Kudos
Sid
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I was curious to know other where people stand. Let's hope one or two more chime in.
Btw, I need the LPO for my next overture. Will they do it for 30 bob and a bag o monkey nuts?!😆
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Oh, thank you Chris, that was the best chuckle I've had in ages!
Cheered me up no end that.
Sid
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Chris, to make the site more viable and appealing to songwriters, I believe it requires partitioned sections. For example, the old site was well structured with separate sections for songs, lyrics, covers, etc. Other songwriting forums follow a similar practice. This site needs separate sections for songs, covers, lyrics, and AI-generated content.
Something like:
Songs -- Share songs you wrote and recorded! No AI content.
Covers -- Share covers you recorded! No AI content.
Lyrics -- Share lyrics you wrote! No AI content.
AI content -- Share your AI-generated content! Only AI content.
I think such a partitioning would solve the problems members are experiencing, and (hopefully) lead to the return of songwriters who left.
Cheers,
Joseph 😁
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Hi Joseph,
I can't say too much here, but this is echoing a conversation I had last week, and I think you maybe right.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that members are having problems, but we have lost some songwriters here of late and it would be nice to get them back.
I'll speak with RDM and see how he feels.
Cheers,
Chris😀
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Are you saying no content or no links, I'm posting only lyrics with OPTIONAL links to sites outside TSF?
I believe currently, that is the same for songs and covers.
Would I be right in saying some people have a problem resisting pressing a link and need it to be stuck away out of sight?
I think such a partitioning would solve the problems members are experiencing, and (hopefully) lead to the return of songwriters who left.Anyone care to elaborate on what problems these adults are experiencing that they feel the need to go away!
Sid
P.S. I know, I can just post the lyrics in one section and then post the same thing in another section only add a link.
that should satisfy everyone!
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Thank you, Chris. The general issue manifests in a couple of different ways. First, a songwriters' forum has always been for people who write songs. Second, it's important to remember that all online content is essentially a contest to draw the attention of eyes and ears. It's a competition for time in a sense. When a forum has a legitimate songwriter posting a legitimate song that he/she composed, and that post is followed by dozens of AI posts over the span of a few days, it becomes an annoyance and a time-wasting chore to bypass the AI posts and find the legitimate songwriter's post and song.
Regarding AI content, I have no problem with people enjoying the AI content if that's what they like. I understand that some people find enjoyment in interacting with AI, having it write a song for them, and then sharing the results with those who also wish to hear it. That's fine, but in my opinion, it should be placed in an AI content forum. Many do not want to waste time listening to a song a computer wrote or even seeing a post about it. They would never see it at all in the AI content section.
I also wouldn't mind seeing a test forum on the site for those who wish to post unfinished ideas during the songwriting process for feedback.
Thanks again for your post and response, Chris. I've spoken my piece about it. I'll give you and anyone else the final word on the topic. I already feel a bit silly discussing it, thus giving credibility to the absurdity of computer-generated songs having a seat and voice at the songwriting table. 😁
Peace to all,
Joseph 😀
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I can see both sides here, but I feel the need to move on now. I asked what people thought about AI generated music, but we seem to have strayed off topic - partly my fault I think. Let's get back to the music.😀
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How about sticking Ai in front of the title.
That'll solve all your problems!
"Many do not want to waste time listening to a song a computer wrote or even seeing a post about it. They would never see it at all in the AI content section.
thus giving credibility to the absurdity of computer-generated songs having a seat and voice at the songwriting table."
For fans of Downton Abbey, at least the upstairs bit!
Sid
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I'll toss another 2¢ or pence in the ring.
I found all the points listed here to be valid.
I believe it would be beneficial to segregate the areas by their respective topics for ease of access.
With regards to AI itself being used for music and for lyrics, if it floats their boat, go for it but label it as such like SS said.
AI although I fear it removes some creativity from the artist by doing the work for them, in cases like mine without it(AI) my words would be mute.
So there is a place for it on this forum but where is beyond my scope of judgment and best left to those with more experience.
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LET ME CLARIFY SOME MISREPRESENTATIONS ON THE USE OF Ai ON THIS FORUM .
THERE ARE NO Ai SONGS CURRENTLY POSTED ON THIS FORUM, NOR TO MY KNOWLEDGE HAS THERE EVER BEEN!!!
WHAT IS POSTED ON THIS FORUM ARE LYRICS ONLY AND THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE BEING ASKED TO COMMENT ON IF YOU SO WISH.
ANY AND ALL Ai COMPONENTS ARE ON OTHER OUTSIDE SITES WHICH YOU MUST CONSCIOUSLY CLICK ON TO GO THERE. HERE'S A THOUGHT, DON'T CLICK ON THEM IF YOU DON'T LIKE Ai, NO ONE'S FORCING Ai DOWN YOUR THROAT!!
I HAVE ALWAYS POSTED MY OWN LYRICS ON THIS SITE AND WRITE THEM WITHOUT THE AID OF DAWs. VST, BIAB,
PREPROGRAMMED FX OR ANY OTHER DIGITAL COMPONENT, SO IF ANYONE IS GOING TO BE SHUNTED INTO SOME DIGITAL 'SIN BIN' WHO DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE?
MY APOLOGIES FOR THIS RANT BUT I'M GETTING FED UP BEING CHARACTERIZED AS SOME KIND OF VILLAIN FOR JUST OFFERING A VOLUNTARY OPTION ON ANOTHER SITE THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TSF.
I TRUST IN OWEN TO SEE COMMON SENSE ON THIS ISSUE AND TOSS THIS PROPOSAL IN THE TRASH WHERE IT BELONGS.
SID
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Sid, take a deep breath. You are not being personally attacked here, even if it feels that way.
This is a contentious topic. I remind everyone to remain respectful towards others.
The site rules for AI are posted here: https://www.thesongwritersforum.com/vanilla/discussion/795/use-of-ai-at-the-songwriters-forum .
Effectively I am treating a song that contains part AI as if it were without - that is a Lyric + AI music is treated as a Lyric and posted where Lyrics go which at the moment is the same place as everywhere else. Handcrafted music with AI lyrics would be treated similarly. A link to an external site that hosts the AI music is fine, along with a note to the effect that it is AI generated.
And that is what everyone is doing.
In terms of the quantity of songs posted, this is driven by people, not AI. It's typical for a site like this to have more lyrics posts than recorded songs. No one is obliged to listen to the AI music and they are tagged so you can easily tell if it is or not.
Regarding how songs are organized into folders, the decision to have all styles together and both lyrics and music together is a deliberate one on my part. When moving from the old site to the new one I explicitly chose to do it this way.
There are pros and cons of course, but my reasoning is that the prev structure tended to isolate people from each other. Yes, there have always been members that take the time to listen and comment broadly, but there also those who choose to stick narrowly within their speciality. In my experience many Lyricists only feel comfortable commenting on other lyrics, and some musicians didn't look in the Lyrics only section at all. Our member base isn't large enough to divide people up that way. Also, one thing I try to encourage is collaborations between members and I think the current approach works better for that.
The current structure isn't set in stone, it's open to discussion. If we start getting 50 posts a day then it may become essential to split it up for it to become manageable. Or you may convince me there are more Pros to some other arrangement.
But I don't see AI being a driving factor. Lyrics+AI music can land wherever Lyrics go whether in a separate folder for Lyrics, or split by musical genre. The only exception here is fully AI songs where both music and lyric is AI generated - and those are banned from the site.
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Thanks for this Owen. I found myself a bit lost for words and this sets out the current forum policy about AI generated music very well.😀
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RDM please clarify for those that still fail to appreciate.
There are currently no Ai songs posted on this site, correct?
The ability to post any music/vocals does not exist on TSF, correct?
Any reference to an Ai song on this site is a misnomer, correct?
The only Ai component that could be posted on this site are lyrics, correct?
Own lyrics posted on this site are fully compliant with the rules of TSF, correct?
Ai music/vocals posted on other sites are beyond the purview of TSF, correct?
Using Ai music generators is not illegal, correct?
Not commenting on lyrics posted solely because the writer posts Ai elsewhere is against the moral and ethical code of TSF basic tenet, correct?
Posters who offer Ai options to hear lyrics outside TSF have equal seating arrangements at TSF's table of songwriters as those who perform themselves, correct?
A simple yes will suffice.
Thank you,
Sid
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Sid,
..'a simple yes will suffice' ?!!
Wow!! C'mon Sid, this is a thread on a music forum, not a police interrogation!! Correct?!!😁
Owen has stepped in here and clarified the forum rules and has said why he feels that the file structure should remain unchanged. I have no problem with that. Put it another way, nothing is about to change. You have absolutely nothing to worry about.
I'd very much appreciate it if we could drop this now and move on.
Thanks,
Chris
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And.......here's my 2 pennies 😃:
In my opinion, I don’t have a problem at all if someone wants to use AI. To each his own. I don’t consider Band-in-a-box as being AI although I’m sure that could be debated but it’s helped me bring some of my latest songs to life.
I used to be part of a professional duo years back….many, many years…actually, decades ago but I no longer have ties to live musicians as my life has taken me another direction, mostly. I recorded a CD back in 2001 with live musicians (along with some programed drums by my ex-band mate). I used to play bass and sing, gigging most nights of the week for years. The smoky bars (back then) and nightly gigging took a toll on my health.
Only in the past few years have I learned guitar which I’m no Eric Clapton by any means. So having a tool like BIAB has helped me bring creations alive that I couldn’t have by myself with my limited time and energy.
So, my point is, same goes for the lyricist or non-musician that want to bring creations to life with AI. Everyone’s got their own musical abilities and limitations but nothing is going to fully be able to replace the human touch when it comes to creating lyrics and/or music. Maybe in the future, we’ll see. I don’t think the terminator is going to take over the Earth either 😂
I’m not threatened by AI. Anyway, it’s not like I’m looking to or have the ability to become the next Taylor Swift lol 😂. That ship done sailed and sank. 💀
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Very well said. You put your points over very clearly.
I too spent many years as a pro singing and playing bass in the pubs and clubs over here in the UK. I still play occasional gigs, but only for the fun of it these days. I get where you're coming from and I can see why BIAB works well for you. Similar to AI? I'm not sure but I don't think it matters.
I don't feel threatened by AI, though I confess that I didn't like it at first. But I can see that, for a non-musician, it can be useful to bring ideas to life. I've come to accept that, if a little reluctantly!
It is a thorny topic and I didn't mean to upset anyone when I asked the question. All the more reason why appreciate your input.😀
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These comments were posted on this thread as part of an effort to get the site's management to introduce Ai only section on this site.
"Many do not want to waste time listening to a song a computer wrote or even seeing a post about it. They would never see it at all in the AI content section.
thus giving credibility to the absurdity of computer-generated songs having a seat and voice at the songwriting table."
In the first instance, no Ai song has ever been posted on this site, so how can you waste your time listening to something that doesn't exist or for that matter create a section to put it in! No Ai lyrics have ever been posted on this site to my knowledge.
No, what we have here is a clear case of discrimination, you don't like Ai so anyone that does use Ai (albeit on a completely different site) is also unacceptable. Their own lyrics should be shunted off to some obscure section, never to be seen or heard from again!
The fact that the only thing being posted on this site are own lyrics, (the same as everyone else) is completely lost to them! Anyone who posts their lyrics on this site and complies with the rules of the site is entitled to be treated the same as everybody else. Their own lyric contributions on this site should not be disregarded or disrespected simply because they exercise their own rights elsewhere.
If some contributors to this site feel the need to leave simply because other contributors do not share the same opinions on Ai as they do, then I have only one word for them, Adios!
Less of an interrogation and more of an indictment.
That represents my last contribution to this thread, a thread that has shown the ugly face of prejudice against those who do no more than write lyrics and look for unbiased feedback.
Sid
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'That represents my last contribution to this thread'
I'm relieved to hear it Sid. I hope Owen doesn't mind, but I'm now closing the thread.
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