Songwriting Process
Whilst there is no single songwriting process that will work for all songwriters, or all songs, what is your process? What are the steps you go through from generating an idea to completing a lyric+music composition. Or a completed lyric if you are a lyricist.
I'm going to exclude the recording / mixing process here, as I think that deserves it own separate thread, except in so far as it affects the song composition. So please focus on concept, idea generation, structure, hooks, melody, chords, rhyming schemes, rhythm, timing, style of writing, use of 1st/2nd/3rd person perspectives, choice of instruments etc etc.
Do you use a similar a process each time or does it vary a lot? Are there templates or resources you use?
At the conclusion of this thread I'll try to collate and summarize these ideas as a resource for all members.
Comments
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A great new discussion...no right or wrong way to go..but here's what I do...
My method varies a bit, but a lot of my ideas for songs come from simply experimenting with chord sequences on my six string guitar. I might come up with just two or three basic chords to kick off with, but it's at this point that I usually come up with my first ideas for lyrics. The rest of the song will usually take shape in much the same way - playing around with the guitar and adding lyrics as I go along. My songs are are usually fully written and mapped out before I start recording..though I will sometimes shift things around in my DAW (Cubase) once the track starts to take shape. I type my lyrics onto a word document, but everything else is in my head. I'm not a reader so my music is never scored or anything like that.
When it comes to the style of writing, lyrics, structure etc. I never analyze anything at all. I just go with the flow. I do take care to make sure that the key is within my vocal range. Obviously I'm influenced by the artists and bands that I grew up with, but I don't give this any specific thought. I'm not trying to sound like anyone other than me! The tempo will come as I go along, though this may change when I begin the recording process. I've used a number of tricks to get ideas for lyrics. For example on some of my more light hearted rock n roll songs of late, I used an online name generator to come up with one or two names. Could even be AI..I never considered that!! The prompt might be 'lady villains' or something of that sort. That's how I came up with 'Spider Maya' who's appeared in several of my songs. That name alone started all kinds of fun! On my more adventurous pop-rock stuff I'll use my own imagination and try to come up with scenes of interest..no specific formula here. I try to avoid anything political or sexist. I also avoid religion, though I'm not against it in any way - it's just not what I choose to write about. My lyrics are somethimes mischievous but I try to avoid controversy. Swear words are, for me, not totally out of bounds in the right context, but I don't like foul or abusive language.
As RDM says, the recording process is for another discussion. I'm hoping that there will soon be a thread for this, and I'll reveal all if this happens.
I'm really interested to hear how others here go about their music. The forum's really come to life of late so, come on everyone, let's hear how you do it!!😀
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! /First is a strong hook and angle , I always google the hook first , if its been done it goes straight to trash .
2/ Then build the story usually in a commercial structure , they're more popular for a reason , it's proven methods .
3/ Pay off the hook with a poignant twist , its easy to just write lines with no surprises , but harder to twist them with meaning.
4/ Keep everything conversational but interesting. I never use AI .
5/ Cowrite with at least one writer , its to easy to miss things writing alone.
6/ Rhyme schemes of course , that should be without saying.
7/ Once its written play with melodies that work, Adjust lyrics accordingly.
8/ Mess around with production ideas , what session players to use .
9/ Put it all together and Wa La got a song
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10/ Come up with a great opening line like Truth or Consequences New Mexico
11/ Once tracks are built practice the song vocally before I hit studio , so I don't waste studio time
12/ Have a pro mix it , I have no interest in learning PRO TOOLS . No interest is not the right word , I've sat for hours watching him mix , It would take a huge investment to buy all that pro tool stuff , He has 20 years doing this , its better him doing it then spending money and a huge learning curve to try to figure it out . He must have 100k on toys , major studios have millions on toys . Pro tool stuff , its a constant on new toys i Imagine , something better is always being invented
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Thanks a lot Elvis for taking the time to explain your processes and thoughts. For non-musicians like myself this gives a valuable insight into the the relationships and prerequisites needed or preferred from the lyrics. My first question relates to your initial chord sequences, how do you avoid your songs sounding the same. When I try I somehow always end up with some kind of sequence involving the same chords and usually ending on G7-C. So many of my songs sound the same!
When you say, songs are are usually fully written and mapped out, does that mean you've got your lyrics sorted and chord sequences down? Sounds like you're a music first and lyrics to fit man? How do you build up the music, verse/chorus, chorus first, or all sections first and then fit the lyrics?
"When it comes to the style of writing, lyrics, structure etc. I never analyze anything at all. I just go with the flow"
Does this mean you have a natural feel for how the lyrical shape should be to fit the music? How flexible are musicians in accomodating variations in cadence, syllable counts, line lengths, etc? What do you do to work with these variables?
I'm going to cut my first tranche of questions here for now and give you a chance to digest and mull over them.
I hope you don't mind if I come back with more, this is so interesting, thanks Elvis/RDM.
Sid
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Usually I don't worry about the music first , I write the song lyrically , Then play my guitar to what will work with the song .
There might be adjustments chord wise to fit what I've written , I might trash 3 melodies that are not working
Session players are called that for a reason , they know what they're doing . I guide them to what i want on the song .
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'When you say, songs are are usually fully written and mapped out, does that mean you've got your lyrics sorted and chord sequences down? Sounds like you're a music first and lyrics to fit man? How do you build up the music, verse/chorus, chorus first, or all sections first and then fit the lyrics?
"When it comes to the style of writing, lyrics, structure etc. I never analyze anything at all. I just go with the flow"
Does this mean you have a natural feel for how the lyrical shape should be to fit the music? How flexible are musicians in accomodating variations in cadence, syllable counts, line lengths, etc? What do you do to work with these variables?'
You are, I think, referring to part of my answer there Sid.
Yes, I am mostly music first and lyrics to fit on my own songs..but not always. And when it comes to collaborations with lyricists it is, of course , the other way round. I'm comfortable to work either way.
I see that Elvis starts with his lyrics. I'd say that the majority of song-writers probably do it this way, but there's no right or wrong imo.
I like to think that I have a natural feel for the that way words and music fit together. It probably comes from years of playing bands. When it comes to 'accomodating variations in cadence, syllable counts, line lengths, etc' as you put it, I honestly don't analyze this stuff as I write - it just seems to happen as it should. Once I'm into the recording process I might shift things around a little - maybe change a phrase or two here and there to make it roll better, but I like to be as fully prepared as possible before I start recording so as to avoid spending large amounts of time editing. Creating the drum parts comes during the recording process so I won't get into that here, except to say that this can take a lot of time. I believe that Elvis takes musicians and a producer into a pro studio, so his approach will be different. My solo project (ie. the music I post on the forums) is just me. I sing, play the guitars, bass and keyboards, but I program my drums. I can play a real kit, but not well enough for my liking. I play in a real band too, so I do get to work with other musicians on stage, albeit only occasionally these days.
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Once in awhile its music first , If the lick is decent to write to Chris . I have to be diligent on not using dated lines or over used cliches .
Kids talk different now , its not 1975 .
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Ha ha..yes, avoiding the old rock n roll cliches. I slip up now and then, but you're right.😀
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its called catching old fart disease , You don't want that , Get a young wife and have her dress you , or your wearing clothes that went out in 1856
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Idea Generation
Sometimes I will start with music, and other times with a lyric.
I keep a collection of notes, phrases, ideas or just titles that I think could turn into something, and come back and visit them periodically. There's nothing like time to let something gestate, so I tend not to throw things away even if they don't appear to be going anywhere yet.
I have a similar collection of part musical recordings, just to capture an idea. But I don't record everything - only when I have something I think is worthwhile, but not sure how to progress at that point.
A musical approach tends to start just noodling around on guitar. I sometimes watch Youtube videos of guitarists giving lessons or explaining techniques. Learning something new opens up new options and often leads to a new song idea. A while back I discovered the F6maj9 open tuning for guitar, and that led to a bunch of new songs that used it.
If I have some sort of musical groove going, then I might just sing random nonsense over it, hoping that a particular word or phrase will feel right in a certain spot and then build out from there. A groove will usually invoke some sort of mood and that will guide the lyric.
There are songwriting prompt generators out there on the web, and I have tried these occasionally, but they haven't been very helpful to me.
I don't worry much about trying to find a new angle, or writing on a topic that's been done before (good luck finding one that hasn't!). I just want to write something that's meaningful to me, or that I enjoy, and put my version out there.
Lyric writing
If my song has a chorus, then I will focus more on that first. It's going to be repeated so it should have the best lines.
It can be helpful if the title appears in the chorus - makes it easier to remember the song title. The last line of the chorus usually carries the most weight so that's a good place to reinforce a title. There are of course songs where the title isn't even part of the lyric!
If the song has a narrative/story style, then I like to set a context in verse 1: a setting, something that ties it down to something specific. The story needs to develop over the remainder of the song, though it doesn't need to necessarily resolve; ie a problem doesn't need to find an answer, but it does need to evolve in some way.
Some of my songs are more atmospheric than narrative. There isn't a strong story line to them. Emotion is the key element here. Evoking a particular mood.
Metaphors and strong imagery are often helpful there. I will often use a more poetic or abstract style in an atmospheric song.
1st person perspective "I" can make a song feel more personal. A love song using "I" and "You" can feel very intimate. 'He/She' can add a little distance and make it feel like you are watching a movie scene - often good for narratives.
Editing
I find my first draft is seldom my best, and I usually need to edit to improve.
Look for weaker lines and see if they can be replaced without losing the meaning and flow of the song.
Check that I'm consistent in my rhyming scheme, and that syllable counts for each line in a verse are consistent between verses - they have to fit in the same musical slot.
Is the lyrical style consistent? Am I being conversational in one verse and poetic in another? Am I using words that fit the style of my song?
Am I using my pronouns consistently?
Have I started referring to someone with he/she before introducing them into the song?
I find it useful to come back a couple of days after I have written a song. I may notice new things or find my opinion of parts has changed once the initial creative euphoria has worn off!
Rhyming
I often use rhymezone.com to come up with rhymes or near-rhymes for a phrase I already have, but don't yet have the pair. I think near-rhymes often work better as they offer more alternatives and can feel more natural and less forced. Forced rhymes can spoil a good song. I might keep a list of possible rhymes alongside a line that I don't have the rhyme for yet - though sometimes the answer is to change words.
Having some lines rhyming, for example lines 2 and 4 of a four line verse and lines 1 and 3 not rhyming is often helpful as it gives more flexibility but no specific rhyming scheme is better than any other. But once you set one, stick with it. The ear is very sensitive to rhyming and will pick up on any changes from it.
Using a different rhyming scheme in verse and chorus (or bridge) will often work well as it adds variation without breaking existing patterns.
Alliteration,the repetition of the same sound, can work very well, so if I have two words starting with the same sound I might try to make it three to emphasize that effect.
Internal rhymes work well, though I try not to overdo them.
Song Structure
For a commercial song, it's recommended to get to the chorus within 30 secs - for a non-commercial song, the choice is yours!
This is based on the behavior of people using streaming services. There are a lot of people who move on to the next track if they haven't heard anything they like within 30 secs, and if anything that timeframe is coming down. I pretty much disregard that, but it is worth noting if you are looking to go commercial.
There is an option to start the song on the chorus, provided no previous context needs to be established.
I've found this Youtube channel has some useful tips on songwriting: https://www.youtube.com/@htws
I've written songs with typical verse/chorus/bridge structure, with only verses, with verses and a bridge, but I have no idea what made me choose a particular structure for a particular song. I do know that the ear needs variation from straight repetition, but that can be achieved in a number of ways, including instrumental solos, turnarounds at the end of verses, and of course a bridge. There aren't many songs where the actual melody and style continuously change, though Bohemian Rhapsody springs to mind. Good luck trying to write a song like that!
Dynamics
I like to change the energy level / volume across the song. The easiest way is usually to separate the verses and chorus, giving more energy into the chorus. If you need a transition in between then that's where a pre-chorus comes in to give it a lift.
Bringing in new instruments as the song develops also affects dynamics and gives a sense of the song building. So I might start with guitar and bass, then bring in drums, then piano/organ, and lastly some highlight instrument.
Cutting from a high energy chorus to almost silence gives a real dramatic pause to a song.
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I'm sure this isn't a definitive list, but we can all things as we go.
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Old fart...I'm afraid that's me! ! I'm not sure that my good lady would agree with the young wife thing!! 1856? c'mon man, even I'm not that old!!😀
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@RainyDayMan That's a comprehensive account of how you work. I can't disagree with any of it. I have a feeling that I'm far less analytical than most. I don't really have any strict formula..I just do what I do and I think it mostly works.
This is a great thread. Here's hoping one or two more join in. Looking forward to a similar discussion about the recording process. I considered starting it, but thought it best to let this run a while first.😀
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There's cure , never act your age Chris
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Hi Chris/Elvis.
Apologies for confusing who wrote what on the last posting! Clear case of Old Farts Disease.
Chris, thanks for working around the confusion.
I've reread both your pieces a couple of times more looking for comparisons and contrasts.
Elvis, from your listing, you appear to know exactly what's expected by others who judge the commercial aspects of songs and you structure to deliver on those expectations. A highly efficient slick and professional operation. Having recently viewed your song on YouTube, it definitely works and delivers a great product!
Chris, if I may, you come across as more laid back and hands on preferring to contribute more musical components and control production yourself. Having had the pleasure of collaborating with you previously, I can attest that your approach is equally professional and delivers.
What you both seem to have in common is the innate ability to know and feel what's right borne out of years of practical experience and development. Over the past few months, I have read 3-4 books on songwriting and watched dozens of video clips. They all tend to advocate analysing the lyrics to ensure the end product fits the musicians requirements, cadence, syllables, etc.
Lyrics come in all kinds of shape and sizes, long-short, long lines-short lines, 8 line verses-4 line verses, various verse structures etc
From a musicians pov, what are the easiest lyrics to set to music and what are the hardest and why?
Thanks so much for contributing your time
Sid
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@ChrisPrice I'm just an analytical person that's all. Not the first time I've noticed that everyone writes songs differently - it's a very individual thing. And not suggesting my process is in any way better - just trying to note down as many things as possible in the hope that some of them will be useful to someone!
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@ChrisPrice Start the thread for the recording process whenever you feel it's ready.
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Oh, This is gold dust! More practical information here than in any of the books I've read to date, including Mr Pattison!
First, I'm going to copy it, reread the posts again and get back with more questions/comments.
Thanks guys for no small effort, even if they wont come out from behind the sofa, a lot of people are going to benefit from this discussion, thanks to you!
Sid
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Building on from RDM, (that was an example of a rhyme), moving very quickly to IDEA GENERATION.
I use a simple NotePad file to store song titles that come into my head. I use a more avanced notebook app to expand on the titles or other idea sources, e.g. NoteCase or Songpress. Pin these to your Taskbar at the bottom of your screen for easy access. As soon as you have an idea or a title open up the notepad/book and write it down, at this point don't do anything else.
Ideas for a song are all around you, train your eye to pick them out. A good exercise is to go on a news site, BBC or Guardian for example. Click on a news video clip and open up your mind to every bit of information on the screen. Pause the screen first to avoid headaches! Ask yourself this question, "is there anything here I could write a song about?' At first you'll only find a couple but with some practice you will find dozens.
Look for cues which lead to ideas which form songs: You're in the shop, outside you hear an argument, you look out, there's two men shouting over a parking space. The cue was hearing the argument, which gave you the idea of men fighting, where? in the street of course. Twenty minutes later, you call Mick Jagger, and say "I've got this song."
Another good source is other songs, I don't mean pinching them, just listen for cues you can expand on and take in another direction. E.g. You are listening to Blackbird by the Beatles, you think flying, fly away. high above the clouds, and so on! I normally use YouTube Music and put other peoples playlists on of my favourite genres, works for me.
I'll be back with some more stuff based on RDM's piece, Chris's, confessions and Elvis's 1856 wardrobe, till then please contribute, even if it is just a small comment, good, not bad, well I never, rubbish, at least we know you're out there.
Sid
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I'm finding all of this very informative Owen. Like the AI thread, talking these things through can bring new understanding. It certainly has for me. I'll start a recording discussion later today.😀
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Marty Dodson a hit writer came up with old fart disease . its stuck with me over the years
Mines , Jealousy is the mother of invention , Admiration might be a better word . My on going battle with God on using jealousy . I don't hear much from him these days , Maybe I've evolved. I was talking to a new friend Reggie about drug abuse , He said I just drink Christian Coffee , If ya think about it the biggest hits were probably written being on drugs
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Case in point the last Eagle album , Coke was a big factor . "Life In The Fast Lane " was written driving around with a coke dealer . If the story is true . Would that fall in the category of the process on songwriting ? I guess it would
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Relevant? Possibly. But not helpful.
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O.k. part 2 of my little build on RDM's great piece above, Lyric writing but first, from the end of "Idea Generation" above.
RDM said, "I just want to write something that's meaningful to me, or that I enjoy, and put my version out there."
Don't be afraid of writing, whatever you write belongs to you, it's your baby. Post it or not, it's your decision!
Right, let's get started, you've followed that great advice in part 1 (mine not RDM's), started a list of song titles in a form of notebook. You have twenty titles in front of you. Go down the list and pick out 5 that sound interesting. Now using that list go down and for each title stop and think about what each suggests to you, write or record everything that comes to mind, don't be dismissive, everything! Don't spend more than 5 minutes on each. Read what you have written for each, o.k. now, which do you know and/or feel the most about? Select one, next decide what you are going to say on the subject. This is the hardest part when you first start songwriting but after a few songs you get better at it. For me it's the best part, this is where you plant the seed that grows into that great song you wrote!
Let's imagine you picked a title with betrayal in it. A few months back your ex ran off with your best friend. You often wonder how the best friend would feel if it happened to the her. There's your song!
Songs are broken down into sections, these sections have different names and functions.
For simplicity, we'll focus on just two, verses and choruses. A verse tells a story, a chorus reinforces a message.
Every songwriter has their own style, there is no right or wrong. Whether you choose chorus or verse, have a map of where you're going with your message or story on paper or at least in your head.
Right, you're going with chorus first and your message is "what goes around comes around." The verses will tell the story of how that happened.
You now need to decide from which Point of View (POV) is the narration, who's telling the tale! Keep the POV consistent throughout the song.
A common song structure may give you just 3 verses to tell your story, maybe just 12 lines, not a lot!
RDM recommends establishing the context in verse 1, follow this rule, you have just 4 lines to set the scene.
My strongest advice is to copy what works. Study how the pro's do it. Keep everything simple so you can see the picture easier. Take some established songwriters like, John Denver, Dolly Parton, Ed Sheeran and Taylor Swift. Whether you like them or their music doesn't matter, you're only interested in principles. First off, get a list of their most popular hits and get the lyrics for the songs. Separate out those that have a simple 4 line verse and chorus and study how they tell the story and how they get their message over. Once you have a feel for how they do it, try it on your own song.
That's enough for now, time for a cup of coffee and a bickie, back soon
Sid
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Relevant? Possibly. yes it is , That's how the process worked on songwriting , Why isn't it helpful ? Don't do drugs while songwriting.
Drugs are the same in 1970 and 2024 , they still kill you , For what a stupid song . To lighten the mood all i use is Christian Coffee to write songs now
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What fault of mine resembles the one I am about to criticize?0
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Forgive me, but what on earth is Christian Coffee? I'm a Brit and I drink hot black tea..with cold milk poured into the cup at precisely the right moment and then stirred clockwise. I like a teaspoon of sugar too. Is this the work of the devil?!!
No drugs but I am partial to a beer when I write...purely for medicinal purposes of course!😁
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It was a discussion with a friend on drugs , He said all he takes is Christian Coffee, its a spin on Jesus I guess , it was funny when he said it , I guess you had to be there. We were talking about eating catfish out of this lake . He said I don't worry about it , ya gotta die to meet Jesus .
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Every once in awhile you run into interesting people with something unique to say.. besides all the boring things you hear . He asked me what's it like making music ? Its a endorphin release , But the bill always comes and I'm in the charity business.
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Hi there, back with part 3 of my attempt to flesh out RDM's piece on the songwriting process. It's mainly targetted at those who fancy a crack at writing a song for whatever reason, but are not sure how to start. In part 2 we looked at writing a simple verse/chorus song, 3 verses, 3 choruses. O.K., you've poured your heart out into your song and you've been staring at the screen for ages wondering if it's any good. Well why not send it in to this forum and ask, introduce yourself and tell everyone your learning and you'd like an opinion. Your verse/chorus form is fine, no problem, the people here are happy to help. We've all been where you are now, so no need to worry!
Before moving on to talk about editing your song, a few more words on structure. Apart from verses and choruses, songs have other sections that perform various functions. Some are simple and self explanatory, e.g intro and outro, others, not so simple, pre-chorus, and bridge. Apart from intro/outro, songs may have other sections included. Take baby steps, and include other sections as you learn what they are and what they do.
Editing, This is what you'll spend most of your time on, a bit like proofreading a book. It's not as boring as it sounds! During this process is when you will learn the meat and potatoes of songwriting! Lyrics need to flow just like music to achieve something that is pleasant to the ear. RDM mentioned rhyming scheme, and syllable counts, don't be put off by the jargon. It all boils down to ways to make the music match the words and vice versa. The trick here is to develop one skill at a time, in your own time. Again, the forum is a well of information and experience, just ask, no problem.
As you pick up and develop a skill, apply it to the songs your working on, don't worry about the other skills at this point. Post it for review and ask for a critique of just that particular element. That way you avoid being overwhelmed with too much feedback on things you haven't worked on yet. At each stage you will see your song and your skills develop and you'll enjoy the editing more and more, bit like watching that sourdough bread rise in the oven!
Well mull over this part and I'll be back with more
Sid
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I'll bet the catfish are tasty. Not sure that I'm ready to meet Jesus yet! Not sure that he's ready to meet me either😇
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Howdy, Stranger!